2012-05-17 [windowframe]: Knowing this, the whole reason we have multiple bosses for stuff like this is so that there are people available to pick up slack if someone suddenly drops out. So I guess, if you want to call anyone irresponsible, it should be us, for not picking up the slack for so long. Criticism duly accepted.

2012-05-17 [Ravenclaw]: There was no cause for that Silverfire. The matter was over, being taken care of elsewhere and I'm happy with that. Now your response causes me to want to validate what I said, which I stand by. I'd be the first to apologize if something truly terrible happened in his/her life. There is no reason to call me passive aggressive for trying to follow the right channels in order to voice my opinion about one of the elftown features I greatly enjoy and utilize. ESPECIALLY when it was a crew member who advised me to do so in the first place.

2012-05-17 [iippo]: Sometimes it is a good idea to think of how you do things, and how it appears to people on the other side. I advised you to come to this page since the Reviews page is commented on a lot - new reviews appear there as automagical comments etc... And I reckoned "one of the people who take care of reviews needs to notice this point about PUNK being away so that they can fix it amongst themselves" since it really is no one else's business, not even mine. Crew are assigned their own stuff to do, so really telling you to comment on this page wasn't my place either and often "wanting to help" is the worst thing to do and this is where I was at fault. And heck, if I'd known how you would go about it, I would have kept my trap shut.

I imagined that you would comment here, saying "All_most PUNK has been gone a long time, is no one taking care of the movie section?" Instead, you said "how about 50 days" (reviving the conversation that was had last year) - which doesn't tell anyone who hasn't been keeping up with the chatter (kept up by Mort and Sammie among other people, part of the reason I was advising you to come over here instead so they wouldn't drown your comment off the page with their never-ending off-topic comments) on Reviews what the hell you are talking about, it just looks... random. Then cue in more chatter from Mort and Sammie and yourself, and the next thing that happens is that another Reviews boss comes in and sees all this chatter on this page that looks like people are taking stabs at someone over something. Never once was PUNK's username or the Movie section mentioned.

Basically, no communication happened here. At all.

2012-05-17 [windowframe]: Since you already admitted that you weren't in the forum, I figured I'd give you the courtesy of some form of answer here that you *could* see. I'm sorry that my wish to let you know you're comments weren't being entirely ignored was apparently ruder than ignoring your comments. XD 

I'm glad you'd apologise, but my philosophy is that it's just better not to stick the foot in the mouth in the first place, rather than doing it and apologising later. :P As iippo pointed out, I wasn't calling you passive aggressive for speaking, I was calling you out on one specific passive aggressive comment. i.e. how you were doing it, not what you were doing.

This was all so fail it's just funny.

2012-05-17 [kians mummy]: I know I am not crew but please can you stop bitching on official wikis as it makes the crew look bad, if you have a problem I am sure SilverFire wouldn't mind a message saying what is wrong.

Now I suggest a crew member deletes these messages and keep it through pm's or the forum, as this isn't a place to have arguments to let everyone see. :)

2012-05-17 [windowframe]: Fearing that someone's complaints make the crew look bad is a really baaad reason to ask them to stop complaining. If their complaint is legitimate, maybe we *should* look bad (and if it's not, it'll be them who looks bad anyway :P) It kinda' makes it sound like the crew's reputation is more important than what we actually do - 'who cares if we're actually acting like dicks as long as people *think* we're saints'.

Comment deletion is a tool which should be used sparingly - to delete spam comments that may push important comments of the page, or to delete abuse. We don't delete comments just because we don't like them. :)

I understand you have the best intentions, but sometimes public places are very much the best place to have discussions or disagreements. There's nothing to be ashamed of in disagreements, though if it's making you uncomfortable, I would suggest to stop reading it. :)

2012-05-17 [Mortified Penguin]: I wasn't chattering. :(

2012-05-17 [Ravenclaw]: I'll just know better from now on that when you try to get something addressed, you might as well not bother.

2012-05-18 [Evolution X]: I know I really can't say much, I've only been looking at this a little, but could I just say that there is some validation to the claim of the behaviour being inadequate? Certainly people need time off, but if they are put in charge of certain aspects of the site, they should make fail-safes. If a page is passworded, then they could certainly share that password with a trusted member of the same page, which would then pick up the slack when they take a time off. It would make things a lot easier, and giving one person the keys knowing that no one else can access them seems rather... ill planned.

Complaints are valid, if a little emotionally charged and badly phrased at times. Yes the cut off time is around 4,000 days but surely there should be an implemented fail safe if a person should disappear? Fifty days is a rather extended period and there is no telling when a person might return. I think the complaint was not directly at the person here, but at the lack of planning should they disappear for their own reason, so it isn't a selfish claim of "they should be here for me" but a proclamation of how unprepared people seemed for these circumstances.

2012-05-18 [iippo]: Evo, Silvie said exactly that: it's a fair comment, the other bosses should have picked up the slack and that the criticism was accepted. Oh and there is no limit, 4000 days is not a limit (protip: don't take anything Mort says seriously, ever :P Or at least don't quote him in any situation). If that point had been made clearly and professionally ("Hey, I noticed [All_Most PUNK] has been gone a long time and the movie-section is getting neglected...") there would have been a clearer and more professional answer a la "ah, thanks, we'll get someone on that".

Ravenclaw: I'm sad that you feel that you learnt that lesson, instead of the "how to communicate effectively (with people who don't know me)" -lesson :/ In Finnish the saying goes "the forest answers back the way you shout to it"... That's kind of an important lesson too... :/

2012-05-18 [Ravenclaw]: You know what Iippo, I didn't make this out to be the attack it turned into. I was trying to bring up an issue I thought was important and yeah maybe I could have been a little more direct about it, (my intention was to go about it conversationally) but rather than actually dealing with and discussing the issue, everyone attacked like I was waving some kind of war banner. It seems to me that when I pointed out someone asleep at the wheel, the forest got pretty effin' defensive. Which is understandable considering that irresponsibility I was talking about lays more on the shoulders of the people who let it go on unchecked, rather than the person who's been gone all this time.

From what I understand speaking with other people who've dealt with this group, I'm just chasing my tail. You people seem to thrive on confrontation and no one will ever consider what they were wrong in how they've handled this. What really hacks me off is that there's no real authority figure to report it to. Not that it would do any good any way. I could go tattle to Hedda, but that won't get us anywhere. I just hope next time someone has an issue you all decide to treat them a little differently.

2012-05-18 [iippo]: o.O It seems that you and I are just reading this entire thing totally different. From how I see it, you and Mort and Sammie were having a jolly old time on Reviews just having a chat. Then you mentioned something that I thought "hey that point should be made in a situation other than a jolly chat, because it's a good point" so I suggested you mention it here. You didn't, instead you guys continued the jolly chat here, with a bit of a mean stab-like stuff going on like people are being irresponsible. Then Silvie replied to your point (which she had to piece together from a forum posting and the reviews page), explaining as best as she could and pointing out that the stabs were un-called for, but that the criticism was a good point. Then you reiterated and played me like a card, which I didn't appreciate so much. So I added my point as neutrally as I could, trying to explain why there might be a problem. Mort and Sammie said something kinda irrelevant, Silvie replied to Sam, you said you were disappointed, Evo gave their two cents, and I replied to Evo and you.

All the way through this I saw no aggression. I know I wasn't feeling aggressive or typing aggressive and I assumed that no one else was either. o.O How did you see it? What was the attack? Did you find Silvie's reply defensive? Because I found it only trying to explain and reply to the comments about "people are irresponsible" (which still was generally aimed at no one since no names were mentioned). You brought up the issue and it was discussed. Why is this a failure (in anything other than conciseness and clarity of communication)? o.O
(And I'm dead serious here, I would really like to understand how you are feeling and what you are thinking, because it clearly isn't the same that I'm thinking and feeling about this all :/ )

2012-05-18 [Ravenclaw]: I'm done. If you don't read the blatant aggression I read, then I don't know what to say.

Anything else that was mentioned on another page shouldn't even really matter. It led me here where I thought the issue would be taken seriously. As a matter of fact the last thing I said, other than thanking you for the link was: "Maybe I should mention it there... I don't wanna cause anything though..." Well we can all see that didn't happen. Instead as I tried to bring the matter up, Mort jumped in making assumptions as Mort does and knocked everything out of joint. We discussed, Josmar told me elsewhere that he brought it up in the forum and the matter was closed. Silvie, who I understand now has a very hostile attitude decided to step in and it all went downhill from there.

I feel like the issue was completely ignored in order to make me look like the bad guy for even trying to say anything. I've been a loyal et member for almost nine years and I feel like I've been completely disrespected because someone got their panties in a twist.

2012-05-18 [iippo]: :/ That doesn't help me understand at all.

The matter would have taken seriously here if it had been presented seriously :C

Silvie was the one Josmar brought it up to in the first place (since the other reviews bosses, Alexi, Punk and Phoenix haven't logged in yesterday) so she stepped in to address the issue in the public wiki page like it should be done. She did it in two parts, one replying to the slightly nasty-toned comments about people being irresponsible (and even that comment had a winking smiley in it - does the winking smiley mean nothing anymore?;) ) and the other part saying "yes, we other bosses should have handled this."

And I still don't think you do look like the bad guy. o.O Why would it? Because this was a conversation, a debate at points, but that doesn't make it a fight since everyone voices their opinion in a debate in a normal way. No one was called names, no one raised their voice... :/


(For anyone reading this all later, it'll help understand that Sammie deleted her own comments and therefore it looks like people are sometimes talking to themselves)

2012-05-18 [Ravenclaw]: You don't have to call people names or post in caps to come off as aggressive. Yes I said an absence that long was irresponsible, when you've agreed to preform a service. I don't see how posting my opinion concerning that came off as "nasty-toned". It's honest and I stand by it. If I treated one of my games the way some things get treated around here, I wouldn't have any players to participate.

The fact remains that there was nothing for Silvie to to address. The issue was over as far as I was concerned. Calling me passive aggressive for stating what I believed to be a fact, felt accusatory. Especially after I considered the matter closed.

I really want this to be over though. I'm sick of arguing about it, but I do greatly appreciate your efforts to understand the situation.

2012-05-18 [Mortified Penguin]: I feel like I'm getting more blame than I deserve, which makes me want to act out and do something stupid so that I can live up to all the blame I'm receiving and not let anyone (especially iippo) down.

2012-05-18 [Mortified Penguin]: *slowly pulls out a pack of fireworks and a lighter*

2012-05-18 [Mortified Penguin]: *...and a condom. For safety.*

2012-05-18 [iippo]: Aww, you deserve all the blame you get, Trollfriend :)

2012-05-18 [Mortified Penguin]: /me runs away crying, leaving his asterisks behind

2012-05-18 [iippo]: :O Someone might step on those and hurt their foot!